Not that they IDF needs an excuse but the Hamas attack gave them cover to ramp up in Rafah. Perhaps Hamas wanted to show they are still around, or they wanted to trigger Israel to attack, thus bringing down more worldwide comdenation on Netanyahu. In any event the Gazans suffer. This will not end until Israel wants to do so. The US continues to lose leverage as Biden's redline is washed away with the blood of innocents.
"Israel apparently dropped several large, U.S.-supplied bombs on a refugee camp"
Nope, Israel dropped a low power under 100lb bomb on two senior Hamas terrorists in a refugee camp and shrapnel from the explosion hit a gasoline tank 100 meters away and started a fire.
This is confirmed by looking at the pictures of the fire which are not consistent with a high-explosive bomb (you can see lots of videos of high explosive bombs dropped on buildings in Gaza and verify there were no fires afterwards).
I usually don't debate anonymous accounts, particularly one named after a bottle of wine. But Let me try.
If I shot a man and he dies, I am clearly responsible for his death. If he is driving a car when I shoot him, the car crashes, and the crash kills his wife and three children who were with him in the car, am I not also responsible for their deaths? You seem to say that the IDF is not responsible for the dead Palestinians, just for the two Hamas operatives that it claims to have been targeting with "small" bombs.
I understand. That is the position of the government of Israel. This may be where you are getting your information and your argument. It was all a "tragic accident." I clearly disagree. I identify completely with the statement today by Martin Griffiths, the UN UnderSecretary General for Humanitarian Affairs. He says:
"We have said repeatedly that no place is safe in Gaza. Not shelters. Not hospitals. Not the so-called humanitarian zones.
"We have also warned that a military operation in Rafah would lead to a slaughter.
"We’ve seen the consequences in last night’s utterly unacceptable attack.
"Whether the attack was a war crime or a “tragic mistake,” for the people of Gaza, there is no debate. What happened last night was the latest – and possibly most cruel – abomination.
"To call it 'a mistake' is a message that means nothing for those killed, those grieving, and those trying to save lives.
You intimated the IDF dropped a large bomb on the refugee camp and this caused the loss of life. This is an outright blood libel: they dropped a small bomb but a nearby gas tank ignited and caused the loss of life. Legally, that's the difference between homicide and negligent manslaughter, big difference.
Griffith is wrong: since Oct 7 IDF designated al-Mawasi as a safe zone and so it has been. They never designated Rafah, on the Egyptian border and full of smuggling tunnels as a safe zone.
Reasoning by analogy is an oxymoron
Review Article 51 of the 4th Geneva Convention to understand what is meant by "proportionality" in the laws of war.
Your knowledge of French is nowhere where it needs to be.
A “blood libel”? 45 people are dead, mostly women and children. Two hundred more are injured, many critically. And you think it’s a “blood libel” to say the bombs were large when the Israeli government say they were small!
Perhaps today’s statement from the head of J Street will help you understand the stakes in this war. It says, in part, that Hamas committed an horrendous crime against humanity with its barbaric attack…
“But, to our great regret, the response of Prime Minister Netanyahu’s government has too often crossed the line from legitimate self-defense and pursuit of justice to itself becoming the source of horrific suffering and destruction.
In the wake of what we see as Netanyahu crossing President Biden’s red line regarding Rafah in the tragedy of this weekend, we reiterate our call of many months now: It is time for this war to end.
It is time for a negotiated ceasefire that brings home the hostages and halts the fighting.
It is time for a deal that allows for a surge of humanitarian assistance into Gaza to meet the massive needs of the civilian population. If there is an offer on the table judged by the United States to be reasonable, the Israeli government must be pressed to accept it, just as maximum pressure must also be exerted on Hamas through Egypt, Qatar and other interlocutors to ensure Hamas accepts it.
Our view of the war today does not erase the horror of October 7 or obscure our memory of the people we lost – many of them friends and family of people in our movement, dedicated to peace and coexistence with their neighbors in Gaza.
The Netanyahu government not only failed the country on and before October 7, but has failed the hostages, their families and the Israeli public since. This government has prioritized its pursuit of the impossible concept of “total victory” and “destroying” Hamas above all else.
The United States, President Biden, and many of us who support Israel’s right of self-defense, must also own responsibility for failing to use all available leverage to change the way Prime Minister Netanyahu has conducted this war.”
A blood libel indeed: claiming that IDF dropped a large bomb to kill 2 Hamas leaders, implying they had no regard for civilians. In fact, they dropped two 37 lb bombs, which explains why there is no large bomb crater to be seen.
If 45 civilians died because a nearby gas tank or munitions dump exploded, that's not an intentional act as you implied. Blood libel, because it smears with intent what was an accidental and unforseen secondary explosion.
As for J Street asking for a sustained ceasefire, how does that remove Hamas from power?
"and the Israeli killing of an Egyptian soldier today at the Rafah gate"
Jpost:
"an Egyptian soldier who fired at troops operating on a tunnel near the border, who returned fire, killing one Egyptian soldier."
Context:
"Egyptian security forces have increasingly targeted Israelis in the past year. Last June, an Egyptian police officer infiltrated Israel and killed three IDF soldiers. Egypt claimed that the incident occurred when the officer chased drug smugglers into Israel."
You seem to base your understanding of the incident on sources defending the Israeli government. Egypt says its soldiers fired warning shots and the IDF responded with "a hail of bullets." I would say we don't know enough to form a judgement as to what happened.
But my statement about "the Israeli killing of an Egyptian soldier" is clearly true. Everyone agrees on that.
If you mean to criticize me for taking the "side" of those who want to end this war, you are correct.
If you mean that I am taking the side of the doctors, aid workers, governments and hundreds of thousands of Israelis who want a cease-fire and a return of the hostages, you are also correct.
If you mean that I am NOT on the side of those in the most extreme, right-wing government has ever had, those who want to use this war to force Palestinians from Gaza and from the West Bank and to accelerate their project of a Jewish-only nation from the river to the sea, you would also be correct.
As Thomas Friedman says, Bibi Netanyahu is the worst leader in the history of the Jewish people. And that's saying something. He is destroying Israel to save himself. He must go.
I looked around after the Jpost article & found the same in Haaretz, a source that I figure you might be more favorable to, but since it said the same thing, I didn't bother to add it.
Re, "Egypt says" - I didn't see that. I'll look around. But Egypt says a lot of things that aren't true. Or says nothing, for example, about the Hamas tunnels built from Egypt into Gaza. Big shock, you know.
Yes, of course, an IDF soldier killed an Egyptian soldier, no one disputes that, but in the context, it might have been better to add that the circumstances are contested. Your wording made it sound as if this was a deliberate provocation on Israel's part, hence my charge that you're biased.
I'm positive that you think I'm some kind of hard core Israel nationalist. I dunno why, I'm just smart that way, or perhaps your outburst tipped me off, but guess what, I too would love to see a cease-fire in exchange for a return of the hostages.
But that won't happen because Hamas is a psychopathic death cult. You don't have to be a fan of Netanyahu to point out that fact.
Your kind of observer is like a guy who watches a boxing match and focuses only on one fighter.
If Biden stops suppling Israel with the weapons it is using to kill Palestinians in Gaza, Israel will have enough weapons to protect itself and to bring its Gaza operations to a safe ending, preferably through a negotiated cease-fire and the release of the Israeli hostages unjustly held by Hamas. This is what tens of thousands of Israelis want. They demonstrated in great numbers this weekend and in the hundreds yesterday after the Rafah attack.
Yes, agreed, the CURRENT battle between Israel and Hamas can end, and perhaps it should. I tend to doubt it will end soon though, as it appears (as best I can tell) both sides (the decision makers) still think they can benefit from the current conflict. That may include Biden, not sure. Pulling the plug on weapons shipments to Israel could cost him dearly.
Anyway, ending the current battle doesn't end the war. Israel vs. Hamas warfare will continue until one of them is dead, imho. As unpleasant as Netanyahu is, he seems to get this.
Here's a question I'd like to see more discussion of. Does the United States, Europe and regional players like the Egyptians want Hamas to exist, or not. Yes, or no?
One option I haven't seen discussed is that if the parties listed above would prefer a world without Hamas, Oct 7 presented an opportunity for them to work together to make that happen. Perhaps the US could have brought more precision to the conflict? Instead of Israel and Egypt shooting at each other perhaps they could have both been shooting at Hamas? Well, too late for this I suppose....
Not that they IDF needs an excuse but the Hamas attack gave them cover to ramp up in Rafah. Perhaps Hamas wanted to show they are still around, or they wanted to trigger Israel to attack, thus bringing down more worldwide comdenation on Netanyahu. In any event the Gazans suffer. This will not end until Israel wants to do so. The US continues to lose leverage as Biden's redline is washed away with the blood of innocents.
"Israel apparently dropped several large, U.S.-supplied bombs on a refugee camp"
Nope, Israel dropped a low power under 100lb bomb on two senior Hamas terrorists in a refugee camp and shrapnel from the explosion hit a gasoline tank 100 meters away and started a fire.
This is confirmed by looking at the pictures of the fire which are not consistent with a high-explosive bomb (you can see lots of videos of high explosive bombs dropped on buildings in Gaza and verify there were no fires afterwards).
I usually don't debate anonymous accounts, particularly one named after a bottle of wine. But Let me try.
If I shot a man and he dies, I am clearly responsible for his death. If he is driving a car when I shoot him, the car crashes, and the crash kills his wife and three children who were with him in the car, am I not also responsible for their deaths? You seem to say that the IDF is not responsible for the dead Palestinians, just for the two Hamas operatives that it claims to have been targeting with "small" bombs.
I understand. That is the position of the government of Israel. This may be where you are getting your information and your argument. It was all a "tragic accident." I clearly disagree. I identify completely with the statement today by Martin Griffiths, the UN UnderSecretary General for Humanitarian Affairs. He says:
"We have said repeatedly that no place is safe in Gaza. Not shelters. Not hospitals. Not the so-called humanitarian zones.
"We have also warned that a military operation in Rafah would lead to a slaughter.
"We’ve seen the consequences in last night’s utterly unacceptable attack.
"Whether the attack was a war crime or a “tragic mistake,” for the people of Gaza, there is no debate. What happened last night was the latest – and possibly most cruel – abomination.
"To call it 'a mistake' is a message that means nothing for those killed, those grieving, and those trying to save lives.
You intimated the IDF dropped a large bomb on the refugee camp and this caused the loss of life. This is an outright blood libel: they dropped a small bomb but a nearby gas tank ignited and caused the loss of life. Legally, that's the difference between homicide and negligent manslaughter, big difference.
Griffith is wrong: since Oct 7 IDF designated al-Mawasi as a safe zone and so it has been. They never designated Rafah, on the Egyptian border and full of smuggling tunnels as a safe zone.
Reasoning by analogy is an oxymoron
Review Article 51 of the 4th Geneva Convention to understand what is meant by "proportionality" in the laws of war.
Your knowledge of French is nowhere where it needs to be.
A “blood libel”? 45 people are dead, mostly women and children. Two hundred more are injured, many critically. And you think it’s a “blood libel” to say the bombs were large when the Israeli government say they were small!
Perhaps today’s statement from the head of J Street will help you understand the stakes in this war. It says, in part, that Hamas committed an horrendous crime against humanity with its barbaric attack…
“But, to our great regret, the response of Prime Minister Netanyahu’s government has too often crossed the line from legitimate self-defense and pursuit of justice to itself becoming the source of horrific suffering and destruction.
In the wake of what we see as Netanyahu crossing President Biden’s red line regarding Rafah in the tragedy of this weekend, we reiterate our call of many months now: It is time for this war to end.
It is time for a negotiated ceasefire that brings home the hostages and halts the fighting.
It is time for a deal that allows for a surge of humanitarian assistance into Gaza to meet the massive needs of the civilian population. If there is an offer on the table judged by the United States to be reasonable, the Israeli government must be pressed to accept it, just as maximum pressure must also be exerted on Hamas through Egypt, Qatar and other interlocutors to ensure Hamas accepts it.
Our view of the war today does not erase the horror of October 7 or obscure our memory of the people we lost – many of them friends and family of people in our movement, dedicated to peace and coexistence with their neighbors in Gaza.
The Netanyahu government not only failed the country on and before October 7, but has failed the hostages, their families and the Israeli public since. This government has prioritized its pursuit of the impossible concept of “total victory” and “destroying” Hamas above all else.
The United States, President Biden, and many of us who support Israel’s right of self-defense, must also own responsibility for failing to use all available leverage to change the way Prime Minister Netanyahu has conducted this war.”
A blood libel indeed: claiming that IDF dropped a large bomb to kill 2 Hamas leaders, implying they had no regard for civilians. In fact, they dropped two 37 lb bombs, which explains why there is no large bomb crater to be seen.
If 45 civilians died because a nearby gas tank or munitions dump exploded, that's not an intentional act as you implied. Blood libel, because it smears with intent what was an accidental and unforseen secondary explosion.
As for J Street asking for a sustained ceasefire, how does that remove Hamas from power?
"and the Israeli killing of an Egyptian soldier today at the Rafah gate"
Jpost:
"an Egyptian soldier who fired at troops operating on a tunnel near the border, who returned fire, killing one Egyptian soldier."
Context:
"Egyptian security forces have increasingly targeted Israelis in the past year. Last June, an Egyptian police officer infiltrated Israel and killed three IDF soldiers. Egypt claimed that the incident occurred when the officer chased drug smugglers into Israel."
https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-803872
Not hard to tell what side you're taking. At least try to be objective when reporting incidents like this.
You seem to base your understanding of the incident on sources defending the Israeli government. Egypt says its soldiers fired warning shots and the IDF responded with "a hail of bullets." I would say we don't know enough to form a judgement as to what happened.
But my statement about "the Israeli killing of an Egyptian soldier" is clearly true. Everyone agrees on that.
If you mean to criticize me for taking the "side" of those who want to end this war, you are correct.
If you mean that I am taking the side of the doctors, aid workers, governments and hundreds of thousands of Israelis who want a cease-fire and a return of the hostages, you are also correct.
If you mean that I am NOT on the side of those in the most extreme, right-wing government has ever had, those who want to use this war to force Palestinians from Gaza and from the West Bank and to accelerate their project of a Jewish-only nation from the river to the sea, you would also be correct.
As Thomas Friedman says, Bibi Netanyahu is the worst leader in the history of the Jewish people. And that's saying something. He is destroying Israel to save himself. He must go.
Thanks for the response.
I looked around after the Jpost article & found the same in Haaretz, a source that I figure you might be more favorable to, but since it said the same thing, I didn't bother to add it.
Re, "Egypt says" - I didn't see that. I'll look around. But Egypt says a lot of things that aren't true. Or says nothing, for example, about the Hamas tunnels built from Egypt into Gaza. Big shock, you know.
Yes, of course, an IDF soldier killed an Egyptian soldier, no one disputes that, but in the context, it might have been better to add that the circumstances are contested. Your wording made it sound as if this was a deliberate provocation on Israel's part, hence my charge that you're biased.
I'm positive that you think I'm some kind of hard core Israel nationalist. I dunno why, I'm just smart that way, or perhaps your outburst tipped me off, but guess what, I too would love to see a cease-fire in exchange for a return of the hostages.
But that won't happen because Hamas is a psychopathic death cult. You don't have to be a fan of Netanyahu to point out that fact.
Your kind of observer is like a guy who watches a boxing match and focuses only on one fighter.
If Biden says "enough is enough" and pulls support for Israel, then what?
If Biden stops suppling Israel with the weapons it is using to kill Palestinians in Gaza, Israel will have enough weapons to protect itself and to bring its Gaza operations to a safe ending, preferably through a negotiated cease-fire and the release of the Israeli hostages unjustly held by Hamas. This is what tens of thousands of Israelis want. They demonstrated in great numbers this weekend and in the hundreds yesterday after the Rafah attack.
I stand with them.
Thanks for the engagement Joe, much appreciated.
Yes, agreed, the CURRENT battle between Israel and Hamas can end, and perhaps it should. I tend to doubt it will end soon though, as it appears (as best I can tell) both sides (the decision makers) still think they can benefit from the current conflict. That may include Biden, not sure. Pulling the plug on weapons shipments to Israel could cost him dearly.
Anyway, ending the current battle doesn't end the war. Israel vs. Hamas warfare will continue until one of them is dead, imho. As unpleasant as Netanyahu is, he seems to get this.
Here's a question I'd like to see more discussion of. Does the United States, Europe and regional players like the Egyptians want Hamas to exist, or not. Yes, or no?
One option I haven't seen discussed is that if the parties listed above would prefer a world without Hamas, Oct 7 presented an opportunity for them to work together to make that happen. Perhaps the US could have brought more precision to the conflict? Instead of Israel and Egypt shooting at each other perhaps they could have both been shooting at Hamas? Well, too late for this I suppose....
Joe is thoughtful and objective. His words are worth reading and thinking about. Read, think and do what you can.